Curse

impulsion · Dec 29, 2009, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

It really doesn't matter though because everything is relative.

This.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk Banewalker

I am sure that impulsion was aware of the relation to the mob baseline when he wrote his post.

This.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

impulsion, you are bad at understanding the problem. It has relatively little to do with what is the most effective skill, and more to do with what is the fastest way to make a buck.

These are the same thing no? The most effective farming build is by definition the build which allows you to make the most money in the least amount of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

The problem with SF is that it excludes alternative play styles. It's SO good by virtue of letting you run past content that it blows alternative play styles out of the water.

What I am saying is that everything is relative. When SF is dead, there will still be a "best" build. The amount of money you make doing a run, depends on how long the best build takes to do it. With SF nerfed, it takes longer to get an ecto, but the ecto is worth more. The rate at which you get money is the same.

As I said before, yes balanced PUGs will make more money per unit time. Let's say that the best build earns money at a rate of 2k/minute. Whilst SF is here, balanced PUGs might make say 50g / minute. Once you nerf a lot of farming builds, it may be that balanced PUGs will earn 1.999k / minute. It doesn't matter, the point is that there is still a best build, and purely for the purposes of farming there is no point running a build that earns 1.999k / min when you can run one which earns 2k / min. There is still no group diversity, people will always use the best option available.
You could argue that having a balanced PUG as the most effective build is the ultimate goal, but this would just mean that balanced PUG is the build that now needs nerfing.
The end scenario of having multiple builds all of which are equally effective will, as I said before, cause my argument to fall flat on its face. There are 5, 10, 20 builds all of which are equally the best. PUGs will form and anybody of any class can join, and run their favorites because they all work just as well as each other.

I do not believe that the game will ever, or can ever, reach this stage.

Earth · Dec 29, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Hi.
Stop with the ad hominems and flat out personal attacks. If it's too hard then just don't post. Thanks.

Kaleban · Dec 29, 2009, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Really not sure why people keep mentioning this.

Would it be great? Yes.
Is ANet going to spend time completely revamping the foundation of the game? No

See, you're why things keep going south in this game.

Do you have any idea how long it would take to add in a few lines of code to the game to make monster mobs randomize their skill allocations completely, or even pick from an array a predetermined set of skills?

No you don't, which is why you think its a terrible idea. If you had any knowledge of how the game really works, you wouldn't be nay-saying the idea of "revamping" because its NOT.

It would take less work and man-hours to institute random skill allocation or predetermined sets than it would a skill balance. The reason being that its just a little bit of code update, much less even than it takes to do a Costume Pack, since you're not doing any altering of the game format itself, just adding in basically a random number generator that does a script call from an array.

Much simpler than 3d modeling and such.

As to Tull's question about how it would affect players, its simple. By NOT knowing what you'll face in a given area at any one time, its much better to take a group that has multiple capabilities and is broader in scope. A side benefit is that the monster and power creep wouldn't need to be as severe, since parties would not be SO specialized and would need multiple profession types to be successful.

My brother could probably write the code in an afternoon, and e-mail it over to ANet lol.

Additionally, by addressing the reward/time ratios, you could make farming less attractive while at the same time reinvigorate areas that are abandoned.

So really, my ideas would make the game much better, especially when compared to the endless nerf/buff cycle that changes the characters, but does nothing for the actual encounters in the game.

Rocky Raccoon · Dec 29, 2009, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

See, you're why things keep going south in this game.

Do you have any idea how long it would take to add in a few lines of code to the game to make monster mobs randomize their skill allocations completely, or even pick from an array a predetermined set of skills?

No you don't, which is why you think its a terrible idea. If you had any knowledge of how the game really works, you wouldn't be nay-saying the idea of "revamping" because its NOT.

It would take less work and man-hours to institute random skill allocation or predetermined sets than it would a skill balance. The reason being that its just a little bit of code update, much less even than it takes to do a Costume Pack, since you're not doing any altering of the game format itself, just adding in basically a random number generator that does a script call from an array.

Much simpler than 3d modeling and such.

As to Tull's question about how it would affect players, its simple. By NOT knowing what you'll face in a given area at any one time, its much better to take a group that has multiple capabilities and is broader in scope. A side benefit is that the monster and power creep wouldn't need to be as severe, since parties would not be SO specialized and would need multiple profession types to be successful.

My brother could probably write the code in an afternoon, and e-mail it over to ANet lol.

Additionally, by addressing the reward/time ratios, you could make farming less attractive while at the same time reinvigorate areas that are abandoned.

So really, my ideas would make the game much better, especially when compared to the endless nerf/buff cycle that changes the characters, but does nothing for the actual encounters in the game.

When are you and your brother going to release your game to the world as it ought to be spectacular.

Fay Vert · Dec 29, 2009, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Adding code to randomise mobs is trivial, and indeed already exists in the game in most areas.

What is somewhat harder is designing the possible mobs and variances in every zone in the game. Each has to be consistant with the eco-system for that region. So while it's easy in principle, it is in fact quite a lot of work, much of which has already been done, to do much more could detract from the main story and consistancy of the game.

reaper with no name · Dec 29, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

See, you're why things keep going south in this game.

Do you have any idea how long it would take to add in a few lines of code to the game to make monster mobs randomize their skill allocations completely, or even pick from an array a predetermined set of skills?

No you don't, which is why you think its a terrible idea. If you had any knowledge of how the game really works, you wouldn't be nay-saying the idea of "revamping" because its NOT.

It would take less work and man-hours to institute random skill allocation or predetermined sets than it would a skill balance. The reason being that its just a little bit of code update, much less even than it takes to do a Costume Pack, since you're not doing any altering of the game format itself, just adding in basically a random number generator that does a script call from an array.

Much simpler than 3d modeling and such.

As to Tull's question about how it would affect players, its simple. By NOT knowing what you'll face in a given area at any one time, its much better to take a group that has multiple capabilities and is broader in scope. A side benefit is that the monster and power creep wouldn't need to be as severe, since parties would not be SO specialized and would need multiple profession types to be successful.

My brother could probably write the code in an afternoon, and e-mail it over to ANet lol.

Additionally, by addressing the reward/time ratios, you could make farming less attractive while at the same time reinvigorate areas that are abandoned.

So really, my ideas would make the game much better, especially when compared to the endless nerf/buff cycle that changes the characters, but does nothing for the actual encounters in the game.

To completely randomize the skill sets? A few minutes. The result would be mobs with even crappier skillbars. Let's not forget that most of the skills in the game are utter crap.

That is, except when they end up with good builds that by coincidence they just happen to be able to use. Then you'd have unbeatable mobs. Yeah, that's a good idea.

Predetermined combos would be better (ie, a certain amount of variation in monster builds each instance designed to weed out gimmicks). But that's much harder to implement because it's not truly random; it's deliberately chosen monster builds that aren't always going to see the light of day. In other words, they'd do a whole lot of extra work that most people aren't going to see, and since those monster builds wouldn't always see play, luck would become a far greater determinator of a group's success. Heck, all you would have to do is keep running your favorite gimmick build and wait until the instance failed to produce something to counter it. That's not balance. That's just polarizing the results of the game.

PvE would become the same as 1v1: either you brought the right build to counter what the other guy brought, or you didn't. And what do you know? 1v1 is not thought of very highly.

Another thing: unless you change the majority of the mobs in an area to counter something, it won't have a meaningful effect, because a person using a gimmick can just rely on the gimmicks employed by the rest of the party to deal with that one guy he can't. So the only way to really counter all the various overpowered stuff without nerfing it is to basically specialize the mobs for dealing with gimmicks, leaving them unable to effectively challenge balanced groups. In effect, balanced would become a gimmick.

The worst part is that even when your tactic works, it would be no better than Anet's current tactic of just nerfing overpowered stuff across the board, because people would inevitably discover builds that the predetermined AI build sets are not equipped to deal with. Unless you stop the problem at it's source (overpowered skills), it will keep cropping up in some form or another.

Martin Alvito · Dec 29, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulsion

It doesn't matter, the point is that there is still a best build, and purely for the purposes of farming there is no point running a build that earns 1.999k / min when you can run one which earns 2k / min. There is still no group diversity, people will always use the best option available.

That just isn't true and it's easy to see. Whether or not people use the best option depends upon the disparity between what the degenerate group earns and what the balanced group earns. Solo farming crowds out other activities when it pays too well compared to alternatives; ditto for degenerate teams. SF drives degenerate teams, and it is so much more efficient than balanced that balanced gets crowded out. Narrow the disparity, and people that value balanced will play it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulsion

The end scenario of having multiple builds all of which are equally effective will, as I said before, cause my argument to fall flat on its face. There are 5, 10, 20 builds all of which are equally the best. PUGs will form and anybody of any class can join, and run their favorites because they all work just as well as each other.

While I agree that in the limit this is a pipe dream, this is what happens for a while after a nerf while people search for the new "best option". You can create this stage by repeatedly nerfing whatever emerges as a clear winner and/or buffing alternatives. As people figure out new tactics and find "the most efficient way", the designer has to react to keep the game from slipping into degeneracy again once "the most efficient way" becomes commonly known.

mrvrod · Dec 29, 2009, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Numbers or shut up..

I stated IF more people are against a nerf that should be reason enought not to nerf. I never stated it was a fact. Put up a poll and see where it goes. If you want me to prove a hypothetical, where aer YOUR numbers showing the majority is for nerfing these builds?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Who cares if you leave? It's not like you are paying $15 a month to play the game. If anything, lesser burden on the servers for people that still play.

I never asked you to care. This is not a threat, it's a statement. Only a fool would continue to play a game they don't enjoy, and I'm no fool. As GW is now, it's going downhill, but I still enjoy it. When that changes, I'll move on. See? Statement, not threat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Also, I'm pretty sure that after 4 1/2 years, ANet couldn't care less if people quit, so there's no point in throwing around empty threats.

It wasn't meant to be a threat, just a statement of fact. If I fail to get enjoyment out of playing a game, I'll move on to something else. I'm just letting people know how I feel about these proposed nerfs. This isn't just about SF. 600smite, discord, and others are also falling under the nerfbat.

Look, I don't want to walk through the game watching as mobs die while I do nothing. That would be boring. Some use these builds that way and play through every area with an overpowered build for that area. Oh well. These are tools for specific jobs, these make some areas doable for myself. Not a cakewalk, doable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Still not seeing where you are coming from...you want to do places that are supposed to be hard, with builds that are ridiculously overpowered to the point of you being invulnerable? I'm not understanding how this is enjoyable at all. You admit to not caring about the phat lewt, but you also enjoy taking ANY challenge out of the game and essentially playing on godmode.

I mean, you don't need godmode to do UW/FoW with 2 people...so maybe your solution is just to be better at the game, rather than relying on godmode? A game is meant to challenge you and make you think. If you don't want any challenge or thought process, make a screen saver that comes up after a minute that says "YOU WIN!".

I don't want a cakewalk. I use the 2 man discord, but not for every area of the game. These builds, for me, are like specific tools for specific jobs. Show me a human Warrior, Human Ranger, 6 hero build, that doesn't use any of the builds being looked at for potential nerf, that will complete Slaver's Exile?

There are several such elite areas like this one where certain builds make the area doable for myself and my guildie. By no means are we enjoying a cakewalk it these areas, we're just finally able to complete them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

Balanced groups actually require fewer people because there is less overall reliance on PVE skills. I have completed almost every dungeon, FoW, and DOA 2man with 6 heroes. Its pretty easy and fast you just need to know what you are fighting and counter it with your hero skills. In a way its almost easier to have 6 heroes instead of 8 people from some areas.

As far as you being in a small guild and only have 1 other person to play with. Well thats your choice, you can find new people to join your guild, or just accept the fact you will be unable to complete some elite area's because of your anti social ingame activity. So don't use the I don't want to make new friends or join a new guild and thus i can't do elite area's without SF.

I have made many friends in game. Many from other countries and/or timezones. When we can get together, we do.

Excuse me for being unwilling to walk away from a guild that I and my children created. I forgot that sentimentality means nothing in a day where divorce proceedings typically last longer than the marriages they are disolving.

Mustache Mayhem · Dec 29, 2009, 11:30 PM // 23:30

these guys probably tank and spank XD abuse the pve skills.. think read something about someone wanted 7 hero's now too XD so let's get this strait.. no more pugs anywhere, you have 7 heros so you can do anything in the game..

how is this any different than the solo's going on right now.. it's just envy- they can't do certain things in the game and so nobody else should be able to either

reaper with no name · Dec 29, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

If you think elite areas need to be made easier, then ok. I can get behind you on that. But that's a completely different debate.

Also, there is more to the game than the elite areas.

mrvrod · Dec 29, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Also, there is more to the game than the elite areas.

Not for those of us who've been around for years. I've beaten everything in this game, several times over, on several different characters, except the elite areas. The elite areas are the only new content left for me.

keli · Dec 29, 2009, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Not for those of us who've been around for years. I've beaten everything in this game, several times over, on several different characters, except the elite areas. The elite areas are the only new content left for me.

then you dont want it to be easier cuz this is the last challange for you

mrvrod · Dec 29, 2009, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

then you dont want it to be easier cuz this is the last challange for you

No, I don't want it to be easy. I do want it to be possible. Again, like I stated in a previous post. Show me a build with a human Warrior, a human Ranger, and 6 heroes that can complete Slaver's Exile, that doesn't rely on the builds that are up for nerfing.

keli · Dec 29, 2009, 11:45 PM // 23:45

elite areas should not be beaten by bad builds or bad set ups, this is why these are hard, bad team with a bad set up wont be able to beat this

you need something special to get through, and imo elite missions shouldnt be beatable(?) with heroes...

and there should not be a build with a ranger+warrior +6 heroes which can achieve success there

mrvrod · Dec 29, 2009, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

elite areas should not be beaten by bad builds or bad set ups, this is why these are hard, bad team with a bad set up wont be able to beat this

you need something special to get through, and imo elite missions shouldnt be beatable(?) with heroes...

and there should not be a build with a ranger+warrior +6 heroes which can achieve success there

So you're for exclusion of people who don't conform to "your" style of play. That explains why you're pro-nerf. Careful, your e-peen is showing.

BTW, since when has HB been a "bad" build? NVM, I really don't want your advice.

Pandora's box · Dec 30, 2009, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Oh, I will be SO glad when GW2 comes out! Not that I intend to play underwatergames. No, not at all! But no more skill balancing, no more nerfing, and finally the end of those endless 'Elite area' discussions... Well no one probably would be able to play there anymore with so little human players around, for that is the consequence of all these nerfs lol! THAN it will be the right time to open my chest of ecto's and be RICH mwhahahahaha!!

Aldawg Thanes · Dec 30, 2009, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

No, I don't want it to be easy. I do want it to be possible. Again, like I stated in a previous post. Show me a build with a human Warrior, a human Ranger, and 6 heroes that can complete Slaver's Exile, that doesn't rely on the builds that are up for nerfing.

I was able to beat Duncan in HM with a broad head arrow ranger (me) a SV necro hero, a MM Necro Hero, a Necro Rit hero and 4 henchies (I think I used cons, but I truely cannot remember).

I have also beated him in NM without a SV Necro, with just the general Sabway and 4 henchies. I just kept him dazed and kept the heroes and henchies spread out.

As far as I know the Sabway build is not up for nerfing, however I could be wrong, if so I will go beat him again without it.

It is not impossible, just takes tactics. I have played the dungeons with this build many times and have gotten used to it and the senerios in the dungeons. However put me in DOA or Urgoz or another similar place in HM and I probably would not be able to beat them right away, however I am sure there are other people who would be able to. It is about practice, these areas are doable, just really hard and they require practice.

As for a Ranger and a Warrior human, I would suggest a BHA Ranger with frozen soil and swap, a Earthshaker/ backbreaker warrior with Save Yourselves 3 necro heroes, one set up as a SV, a fire or earth ele, a Shutdown Mes, a healer/ prot monk, and either another healer/ prot monk or another ele. That should do the trick. (If Save Yourselves is up for Nerfing, bring something else, you should be fine).

If you would like to pitch around some ideas pm me. I dont get to play much now, but in a few months when I can play more if you are still having problems, we can go it together.

Reformed · Dec 30, 2009, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

No, I don't want it to be easy. I do want it to be possible. Again, like I stated in a previous post. Show me a build with a human Warrior, a human Ranger, and 6 heroes that can complete Slaver's Exile, that doesn't rely on the builds that are up for nerfing.

Not that I'm trying to bust your balls here...but you do know that the original Slavers team included both a War and a Ranger right? You could easily do that with some micro. Unless you insist on HM and then I don't know what to tell you...it is Hard with a capital H and you need human players for aggro control that won't camp cast. Anyways, I don't know what the kiddies run nowadays but this setup worked then for dozens of runs with no PvE crap or perma and should work now...

1x OF tank
1x Splintbarrage/FS
1x SS/br (switches to N/A SV/swapper for Duncan)
3x SH/SF generic fire nuker (or 2x and an IV spiker/corpse deny on Dunc)
1x ZB/bond
1x HB/HP general blah healer

keli · Dec 30, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06

by HB do you mean? (hero battles, healers boon, heavy blow...??)

sorry i cant help if you want hard areas to be very easy and beatable with any build
this is not about playing style

shoyon456 · Dec 30, 2009, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Not for those of us who've been around for years. I've beaten everything in this game, several times over, on several different characters, except the elite areas. The elite areas are the only new content left for me.

Then you, like me, should know that a godmode button (excuse me, its THREE buttons) that can only be used on primary sins completely craps on those elite areas.

It's an insult to the game.